Are the Finns the Mongolians of Europe? PDF Print E-mail
News - Opinion
Thursday, 13 November 2008 16:08

By Edward Dutton 

Most people are surprised when they discover that until as recently as the 1960s it was widely accepted that the Finns originally came from Mongolia. But the Mongolian ‘Origins of the Finns’ is a controversial topic in Finland. The Western-looking academic elite have done all that they can to suppress it and academics that still contend that Finns have ‘Mongoloid origins’ are cast into the wilderness in a ferocious dispute.

Are the Finns the Mongolians of Europe?       Until very recently, Finns were encouraged to see themselves either as ‘eastern’ or at least ‘between east and west.’ It was in the 1790, when Sweden ruled Finland, that German anthropologist J. F. Blumenbach compared Finnish, Sami (the Arctic reindeer herders) and Mongolian skulls and concluded that the Finns were ‘mongoloid’ and not ‘white’ like the Swedes or Finland’s Swedish-speaking aristocracy. This was widely accepted and led to the Turanian theory – that both the Finns and Sami had originally come from the East – as well as strengthening the view, according to Finland-Swede sociologist Nina af Enehjelm, that Finns were somehow ‘other’ and even ‘inferior.’ The ‘Mongoloid look’ is widely noted in Finland today and, there has been research that has compared Finnish religion and history to that of the Greenlandic and Finnish behaviour patterns to those of the Japanese.

 Finland-Swede linguist M. A. Castren added to this in 1840s when he investigated the Finnish language and tried to understand which languages were related to the seemingly isolated tongue. He found that Sami, Estonian and Hungarian were from the same family but so were a series of languages across Siberia such as Komi and Mari. And even languages like Mongolian and Greenlandic seemed to have a similar grammatical structure. This led to the ‘Migration Theory,’ arguing the Finns arrived in Europe from Mongolia around three thousand years ago and finally got to Finland 2000 years ago. The more recent discovery of genetics has added further evidence to the ‘Mongol’ claim. Geneticist Richard Kittles found in 1998 that Finns have ‘Dual Origins’ between Germanic and Mongoloid as measured by their ‘Y Chromosome Haplotype Variation.’ Other geneticists estimated that Finns have between 10 percent and a quarter mongoloid genes, more than any other European nation. Twenty-seven percent of Finns carry the eastern ‘Tat C’ marker compared to only seven percent in Norway.

          And in 2003, Slovenian geneticist Andrej Marusic observed that the Finnish propensity to alcoholism could be explained by the ADH22 gene ‘which is common in Eastern peoples but almost unheard of Europe.’

          There is, he argued, a ‘J Curve’ where this gene is found which parallels areas where Finnish (and related languages) are spoken. For Marusic, ‘this seems to substantiate the theory that the primary ancestors of Finno-Uralics are the Mongols. The Mongols have not traditionally consumed strong alcohol whereas Europeans have for thousands of years, developing a genetic resistance to it.’

      However, since a symposium in the 1980s it has become more common – especially in Finland – to argue that Finns are completely Western, with what is called the ‘Continuity Theory.’ According to this view, Finns are ‘Proto-European’ and arrived in Finland between 6000 and 11000 years ago and they arrived from the south. The Finnish ‘mongoloid look’ is explained by Finns being genetically isolated and so retaining the adaptations to the cold of the earliest Europeans. There is even an Estonian anthropologist who argues that the Migration occurred from West to East, making the Mongolians descendants of the Finns. But this new-found ‘European-ness’ has been especially convenient for the Finnish elite.

      According to Finnish anthropologist Pertti Anttonen, in his book Tradition Through Modernity, Finns are ‘insecure’ because of historical perceptions of their being ‘not European’ and so ‘inferior.’ He argues that, whatever the symposium concluded in the 1980s, until the 1990s Finland was under the influence of the Soviet Union so being a bit ‘eastern’ was useful. This was reflected in the English-language book about Finland, published every ten years or so by a Finnish publisher, called A History of Finland. From its first publication in 1963 up to 2003, Finns were described as partially ‘Eastern’ in some way. Suddenly in the 2003 addition, all discussion of the eastern origins was dropped from the book.

          Anttonen also highlights the work of Finnish historian Prof. Aira Kemiläinen. Now dead, she attempted to persuade Finns that they were ‘European.’ Of the Mongol look she claimed, ‘in fact this book does not exist in Finland’ without providing any evidence for its dismissal, branded academic opponents as ‘racists’, ignored the latest genetic scholarship and, bizarrely, attempted to argue that Finns should be seen as ‘European’ because they were ‘educated.’

          ‘Ideas of race and civilization are linked, as the “Western Genetic Heritage” of the Finnish population is used as an argument for Finland belonging to Western Civilization,’ summarises Anttonen. He felt that the book was more nationalistic than real scholarship but inexplicably it as published by the Finnish Literature Society, the main Finnish academic publisher.          

      The Finnish Literature Society has long been criticised for being influenced by a Finnish nationalist agenda. Finland historian William Wilson argued in 1976 that the society was heavily influenced by extreme Finnish nationalism and that it published scholarship on the Finnish folklore epic Kalevala knowing that it reflected a nationalist agenda rather than what was justifiable. It was founded to promote Finnish literature back when Finnish was not even an official language in the, at that time, Russian Duchy and so the now government-funded publisher has always had some kind of nationalist agenda.

      And the current view with the Finnish elite is that Finns are Western. As Anttonen puts it, ‘The emphasis on the Western-ness of the Finns is a recent phenomenon’ rendering Finland’s joining the European Union a ‘return to Europe.’ This leaves those who still argue that Finns are originally from Mongolia in the academic wilderness,

      Prof. Kalevi Wiik cannot get his genetic work on Finnish origins published with the Finnish Literature Society despite it being published in international academic journals.

          ‘It would be impossible to publish with them,’ he says of the world’s dominant academic publisher on Finnish culture. ‘They don’t believe in the genetic view and they disregard the genetic facts.’

      Wiik recalls how his theories have been met with ‘anger. I kept a big file on it. I was accused of producing voodoo science in one newspaper article!’ He was also accused of having ‘right-wing supporters’ by another emotional critic.

      ‘The Finns have around a third Germanic genes, a third Baltic genes and a third genes from the east. These are the genetic facts!’ he insists, though the idea that Finnish babies have the ‘Mongol Spot’ seems to be exaggeratedWiik also argues that Finnish men carry Mongoloid genes to a greater extent than Finnish women and that most of Europe must have spoken a Finnish-type language around the time of the last Ice Age with Finland retaining its language due to isolation from Indo-European invaders.

      But at the moment, Wiik’s views don’t seem to fit with how the Finnish academic establishment wants Finland to see itself. Kemiläinen’s book ignored his work completely and even Anttonen terms him ‘controversial.’ Finns were always told they were ‘between east and west’ but now, in the wake of the Cold War, they are being told they are ‘Western.’

      For 78 year-old the ferocity of the debate of Finland’s ‘Mongol origins’ proves, whatever Finland’s origins, that Finns are very insecure about whether or not they’re really European. ‘The idea that we Finns are Mongoloid is still with us,’ he says. 

Dr Edward Dutton is a British freelance journalist and academic based in Finland. He is currently finishing a book on Finnish culture called The Finnuit.

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reply written by finns, January 21, 2010
haha really? superiority complex much? wow get over yourself. you can keep your damn mongolian heritage.
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reply written by finns, January 21, 2010
haha really? finns and polish? nope sorry. we look nothing like polish people. atleast the dark haired populus of finland. geez. c'mon now.
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reply written by Selengee, January 14, 2010
I am Mongolian and I believe that Central Asian people migrated to Europe and got mixed up. It is not just about Chinggis Khaan (Genghis) conquering over there, it was even before that. Anywayz, as a Mongolian, I am happy that there are more and more people who have same genes as us since our population is only couple millions.
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reply written by Annie, January 13, 2010
I am half Finn/half German American, I have very blonde hair and fair skin, however I have small, green Asian shaped eyes (as do my siblings)- a very nice combination. When I was a kid, my friends used to joke-" Are you Chinese with blonde hair?!" And I would gladly say that maybe it was in my history- thinking that would be an interesting and exotic story! My husband (who is English) and I often comment on how pink his skin is next to my yellow undertones. Now after reading this article, this could surely be a possibility. And if it is, WHY would that be a PROBLEM?! Wouldn't you just say, "That's an interesting theory." What a wonderful mystery to research! Why would it matter to you personally if it was true? Would it change who you are? Your worth, your talents? I believe we are all educated enough currently to know that ethnic mixing is prominent in every society's history. This can't be surprise information. Some Finnish people may have nearly all European/Scandinavian background, while others may not. Never-the-less the Finnish people are beautiful. The Asian people are beautiful. Can we not appreciate the beauty of difference yet? Honestly, when I read many of the comments on this page, I literally couldn't believe people still think like that in 2010. I'm astounded. It was like being taken back in time to 1940, or way out into the back woods in the country where people haven't had an opportunity to educate themselves to the fact that they are not an island unto themselves. Surely we have many more important things to worry about and focus on in our lives.
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reply written by Lampi, January 06, 2010
I am half Finn, and my 100 percent finn grandparents were so dark that people thought they were native american (we live in northern minnesota.) I always thought my grandpa looked japanese. Not all Finns are blond and blue eyed, those are the Finns that have more Swedish ancestry then true Finnish ancestry.
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reply written by ub, December 22, 2009
that was for jack -otherwise known as 'a self-righteous historian'!
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reply written by ub, December 22, 2009
And you fail World History! What an incredible dumbass. Mongols made it to shores of Vienna. Go read history books instead of relying on your fictitious novels.
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reply written by Kirby, December 21, 2009
LOL Here come the stormfronters. They are going to now seriously claim that the ancient egyptians, mesopatamian, chinese, indian civilizations were founded by whites. Offering no evidence naturally.

As for "genetics" Europeans mutated from South Asians and Central Asians, and to a lesser extent in southern europe, middle easterners.

Inferiority complex? Europeans are the ones that have had the most insecure beliefs in their racial "purity" which has been debunked. When they first went to the the east they were astonished by how far they were behind that they had to re-write history altogether. No other race in history has ever been that insecure.
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reply written by Jack, December 21, 2009
Oh good God... Those embarrasingly ignorant Americans. Mongols made it to Moscow, no further. Look for Mongolians in Russia.
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reply written by Jack, December 21, 2009
Did you make up another story? Same poster active multiple times...

I have 100% Finnish ancestry and nobody can tell me apart from a German, Dutch or Norwegian. And yeah, all my relatives and friends are the same...
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reply written by ub, December 21, 2009
They should just delete this article and be done with it. Everyone knows that Mongolians have nothing to do with Finns.
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reply written by ub, December 21, 2009
I'm gonna say the same thing to you. Don't go acting all innocent and shit. We know how you acted during WWII, that's why Russians look down on you people. Have some self respect, in the future choose a side and stick to it!
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reply written by Mongolian, December 21, 2009
You should write to this so-called Doctor and profess your disgust and anger (it's obvious you are very much offended by this article). We Mongolians have never thought of Finland having anything to do with us. And there is no need for you to be LOL-ing us in any case, you're the ones who were licking nazi ass. You were so ready to spew Aryan propaganda when the nazis were winning, but as soon as you saw the winds changing you switched sides like the spineless poltroons you really are. If anyone should be LOL-ed it should be YOU!
There is no way in hell that Mongolians could ever be associated with such cowards as you!
PS: Finland A.K.A wanna be Scandinavian. LOL
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reply written by Professor X, December 21, 2009
I think the problem with this article is that it implies there is something in common with these two very different and seperate races/cultures.

It shows an image of one (1) woman who has certain features that could be considered asiatic (looks more russian) and goes on and on about the temporary and isolated contact between eastern europe and "Asia/Mongolians", but never provides any solid historical evidence of systematic breeding. Is it implying that there was a influx of "Mongolians" that raped a significant proportion of the populace and the resulting offspring were somehow accepted and allowed to live in the territory and have families? Thats absurd. Nothing like that has ever happened and probably never will.

In reality today Fins could pass as Poplish. They have more in common racially with Poland than any other country.

The real issue here is that Finns were/are no longer accepted (although things change) as Nordic/Norse at-the-time and given their geographic location could not be considered Western either.

Today Norway and Finland are racially alien to the Norway/Finland of yester-year. But that is not because of any "Mongolian" (LOL) interferance, it is because of Two-World wars that have crushed the racial balance of Europe which it has yet to recover.
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reply written by StarKiller, December 21, 2009
Well you certainly got one thing right, Europeon whites are a bunch of "Mutants" as you put it.
You see, after Germany lost WWII, people like you escaped from the concentration camps and allowed to spread your anti-white race mixing/destroying doctrine around for those who have an inferiority complex towards the white race and don't understand that it is our genes that have brought up every race in existence.
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reply written by Kirby, December 19, 2009
LOL Europeans evolved from Asians, not the other way around. Europeans are basically various asians (mainly south asians with some middle eastern admixture) that mutated and evolved with lighter features. Although the mutation oflighter features has also been seen in parts of the mideast, central asia and south asia.

The vikings lol would have been more comparable to african tribes, not mongols. The had no impact outside of their cold barren lands. A complete joke.

Anyway the finns are mostly Haplogroup N in their y-dna, meaning it were east asian males with european women, not the other way around.

Mongols descend from Haplogroup C an ancient group of asians closely related to Australian aborignals, various central/north asians. The finns descend from haplogroup N a newer asian group more closely related to the chinese.
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reply written by StarKiller, December 16, 2009
LoL, this is funny article...

Here is how the story goes,

Way back in the day Asians were dark skinned until they breed with the white man (Blonde hair/Blue eye), then they migrated around and splintered off into different "branches" of asians.

Later on, the viking came down the river and breed with some more of the woman (viking never gave their woman away, FYI), this is where Mongolians get their strength, stature & SOUL.

Ghenghis khan was said to have "Red hair and Green eyes" because he was descended from the Viking.

Finns today are not considered pure white, they are mixed with several different races... they are NOT Mongolian.
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reply written by raki, December 14, 2009
This is so interesting!! I am of Indian origin as in India. I still have a huge blue mongolian spot on my butt and all my children were also born with the mongolian blue spot and we do not look east Asian at all. My family is from the Gujarat area of India. I found this blog because I was looking for information on the mongolian blue spot. I think people have been mixing and mingling since there were human beings and our first ancestors come from Africa!!!!
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reply written by Pat, December 13, 2009
The Finns do come from Asia. Haplogroup N descends from NO. NO is clearly Asian. Of course some Whites are ashamed to admit that they are not as "pure as originally though. Let's not forget that R1 and R1a have been proven to originate from India. Ancient Indians migrated to Europe, not the other way around. Mongols descend from Haplogroup C one of the earliest out of africa migration groups. Mongols and aboriginals of Australia descend from C. For those of you wondering about light hair hair, just look to the Australian Aboriginals.

The Mongols and Aboriginals are different phenotypically, but genetically very similar. Haplogroup N is completely different and descend from a newer group, not C like the mongols that the older waves had.
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reply written by Mikko K, December 12, 2009
I am a 191cm blonde, blue eyes, Germanic look. Most people say I look like a German. I am aware I am ethnically a Swede, due to my family research I've done. I seriously consider that this stuff isn't true.

Just look at the Englishmen, some of them have Chinese-looking eyes altough they are white.
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reply written by Barb, December 04, 2009
My husband was half Finnish, and he was blonde but he had the big Mongolian head, the small hands and feet and big broad shoulders and
chest, and small waist, butt, and legs. And he has a sister that is
really dark like the Sami people that heard the reindeer in Lapland.
Finnish people are white, just have Mongolian ancestry in the distant
past. Ghengis Khan and his hords of Mongols went through Estonia, Fi
nland, Latvia, Lithuania, some parts of Germany, Bulgaria, Hungary, and
Albania.
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reply written by Tuimala, November 16, 2009
I am an American born 100% Finnlander. All 4 of my Grandparents came to America in the early 1900's.I am the youngest of 4 children. My parents both had dark hair. The 4 children were blonds as young children the oldest 2 turned dark haired early teens one stayed blond. My hair turned darker later brownish. I have been asked many times if I was oriental. Even my daughter has been asked by fellow classmates that they had no idea she had Chinese in her. That is because her friends had seen me. Mongolian yes I believe the gene is there. Why the Finns are ashamed? Well I for one am not. The intermingling of species has been going on for eons of time.The deer herders and northern European tundra herders covered wide terrain. Yes Genghis Khan conquered vast areas and could be terribly cruel but he also enjoyed the culture and the arts. God works in mysterious ways. Genetics are what they are and I am proud to be a part of that gene pool. Here's to the Mongolian Finns.
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reply written by mikko, November 15, 2009
have to add that of course japanese isn't really considered mongolian or really related to other asian languages or is it`?
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reply written by mikko, November 15, 2009
Well, i'm a Finn.I have a mongol spot, and I'm brown haired. I' m built like those mongolian wrestlers barrel chested and short feet. and huge head. My twin brother is completely different. Tall, blonde, i mean really blonde almost albino blonde and tall and lanky, with long legs. it's almost funny how different we look though twins. i have to say to the mongolians here that i don't think that most finns wouldn't mind to be related the mongolians or the grat hunnic tribes, it's just that finns themselves are bit confused who they are. they are so deifferent than the people around them. The language sounds like japanese or some kind of samoan, but still it's odd that people here are blondes more than anywhere in the world statistacilly, Which is a bit odd?
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reply written by Matti Keski-Korpela, November 11, 2009
That a part of our anchestry would be Mongolian - what would be wrong with that ?
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reply written by Ville Kansanen, November 10, 2009
Well, to be honest I don't think this issue is nearly as heated or discussed in Finland as Mr. Dutton is trying to portray it. I was always taught in school (I am a Finn) that our origins were very uncertain but most likely a mix of Eurasian and Scandinavian peoples. I have never heard of anyone declaring us as 100% Western, except perhaps in contemporary social standards.

I find Mr. Dutton's writing style offensive, describing scholars, who disagree with this theory as "elitists". If you know anything about Finns, you'll notice that they are very hard to convince of anything without factual proof. In fact, isn't that how academics work in general? In the point of view of genetics, I think Finns are very interesting and unique. I'm very excited to find out that the section of Finns that have been DNA tested have Mongolian traits in their gene pools. I am, however, interested in the scope and magnitude of these tests and how comprehensive they are which was not mentioned in this article. If someone were to prove without a doubt that Finns are of Mongol descent, I am 100% sure, that will be what Finns will be taught at school even if some isolated Finns will feel like they are "inferior" to the Frankish or Germanic tribes of Europe.

In the meantime, it is an on-going debate which needs more objective study and less "dutton-ish" publicity stuntmanship, if you will.
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reply written by gty, October 26, 2009
he he he,
I just had a quick look on those comments. Really made me laugh :-)
People take things so seriously.
I´m Mongolian and the Finnish are Finnish. How can you prove their roots.
Even it´s proven SO WHAT... Let them be Finnish, if they wish so :-)

Nevertheless, I´m not agree with these guys that think themselves superior than the others.

Congrats Edward, good job! Mission accomplished, your article has made a really discussion.
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reply written by allright, October 26, 2009
Give my regards to your Swedish friend that the feeling is mutual. And oh, ask her if Swedens near history (as Nazifriendly and being forerunners in racial biology)have had any impact on her attitude towards us?
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reply written by bobo, October 23, 2009
Again it shows that somehow they are angered by this article. Who really cares about this stuff anyway. Anyone who has eyes can see that we don't have any relations with these people. They are just Europians. But don't try to deny it, i know that you guys are very sensitive and even defensive when it comes down to this. No wonder my Swedish friend told me she dislikes Finns very much. Stop being babies, and let's move on with our lives.
It would be close to the truth if they said we are related to Hungarians instead.
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reply written by allright, October 22, 2009
That Finns are sick and tired of ignorant people making untrue connections based on pseudoscience from early last century does not mean that Finns are "nazis".
Finns would be equally angered if it was again and again claimed that they are from Spain, which is not true either.

Finns are descent from an ancient north European population scattered over a large area which can be called the Eurasian contact zone.
There is an ancient contact between Uralic peoples and Altaic peoples such as the ones who became the Mongolians, but it was 10 000 years ago! This contact between Uralic peoples and is nothing unique, the same contact have been between Indo European and Altaic peoples as well and even more recently. That's why you can find typically European DNA in Mongolians and Uighurs and Asian DNA in Slavic and other European populations (Germanic and Latin).

And only around 7-4% of the Finnish genes are Uralic, 1 % is east Asian. Same or less than in most other Europeans populations. The rest is European.
So the connection Finns -> Uralics -> Mongolians is just as far as Norwegians -> Indo Europeans -> Bangladeshis. Get it??

The double standard about this is what is so ridiculous.

Like some poster said, it is embarrasing admitting a connection which is untrue.
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reply written by Mongol, October 21, 2009
I can see this Finn people resistance to this theory from below comments.
Do not worry, that does not make you Mongol anyway.

So what if we were related in 3 or 4 thousand years ago. In afrocentrism, we all derived from Africa, so what that does not make us any more african than Mongolian.

being so sensitive to this article, shows that Finns are quiet nationalistic (nazi- like). And that is embarassing than being related to mongols somehow than being nazi.

This is just one world people. be open minded to many ideas
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reply written by allright, October 21, 2009
STACY,

That was a low post and your real purpose shines through... Get a life!
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reply written by Stacy, October 20, 2009
Yes we are, but it is unfortunate how we deny our roots. The denial lead Finns to embrace Nazi racial ideology in the 1930's to prove otherwise and as the article points out, Finns still live in deep (racist) denial.

I think the more people look like Mongols the deeper they are in denial. Examining the mirror I have hard time finding Mongolian characteristics (mostly Baltic) from my face yet I have no qualms about accepting my past.

Unfortunately it has been proven recently that the history of Finland is falsified and riddled with nationalist propaganda, so in this country to the embarrasment of all, the history changes more swiftly than the present.
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reply written by H Mononen, October 17, 2009
Why should Dr Edward Dutton, a British freelance journalist and academic, have a problem about the origin of the Finns? Let us leave the research on genetics for properly educated geneticists, instead of writing political rubbish about it.

Whether I might have Mongolic genes or not, it certainly causes no problems to me as a Finn. Is Dutton just a racist entertaining patronising and superior attitudes, acting like a genuine descendant of English profiteers on slave trade with their perception of their humanly "inferior" merchandise?

Please, do send us some more credible academicians from Britain.
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reply written by to each their own, October 16, 2009
"I honestly don't see why any Finn should feel 'inferior' to the rest of Europe. If they have Mongol genes, so what?"

They don't feel inferior per se. They object unsubstantiated claims and so do I, as an estonian. For example Saami people have less mongol genes than the danes. Why? Because saamis originate from the Franco-Cantabrean ice-age refugium. Samoyed were originally mongols and now are a mix of mongols and europids.

Finns don't have considerably more mongol genes than other europids at the same longitude. All native europeans are europid, the border roughly follows the Ural mountains and the Ural river. Nevertheless, all europids have mongol genes - eastern europids have more, western europids less.

Finnic finno-ugrians have got genes from every direction, but even the majority of the eastern genes actually originated from the south ie. the ice-age Ukrainian refugium.

It is not embarassing to admit mongol origin if you have one. It IS embarassing if you admit it when you don't have one.

It is not embarassing for mongols if someone does not admit mongol origin if that someone does not have one.
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reply written by passing on by, October 16, 2009
Not really Blu Eyed. But good try.
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reply written by Blue Eyed Aryan Boddhisatwa from Finnland, October 15, 2009
It is sad to see Asians from buddhist countrys embracing christianity and than looked surprised when learn that those who converted them still sees them as lower race no matter how much you belive in same "God" as they!


actually Buddhism, Arya Dharma, has an Aryan origin. And Christianity contains a lot of disgusting Semitic bullshit. /opinion/2084-are-the-finns-the-mongolians-of-europe/smilies/grin.gif

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reply written by TomTom , October 15, 2009
Edward Duttons writing is unfortunately a very emabrrasing piece of pseudoscientific nonsense from a person calling himself an anthropologist.

Nobody, accustomed to genetics, history and culture of Finland can understand the far fetched and bizarre conclusions Dutton attempts to make. What is really disgraceful for Dutton is that he is grossly intellectually dishonest when deliberately reading in messages that simply aren't there in the scientific publications he refers to, just to prove his case.

Dutton have previously written strange articles and unfortunately, he seems to be on an agenda.

And p.s. Finns ARE NOT born with the "mongol spot" (see SCIENTIFIC study referred to by Kukkahattu). I know that appears in caucasoid populations too but not in Finland to larger extent than anywhere else...
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reply written by Lauri, September 21, 2009
This is kinda funny, my siblings allways used to make fun of me "mongoloid" now it all makes sense smilies/wink.gif greetings from fin
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reply written by Edgee, August 20, 2009
Finally an answer I've been looking for! To settle all doubts. And this makes perfect sense. While most concentrate on analyzing just the Finns in their (now) native European abode, and to a lesser extent of the Finn-like peoples of Karelia in Western Russia, a truly independent analysis would follow all the Finn-like peoples all the way to wherever the observation would take one. While Finn-like may be admittedly a non-scientific definition, when one traces the spread of such an ethnos to its supposed origin it clearly takes one over the Ural mountains and to the Altai mountains where entire villages are comprised of Finnish-looking folks, especially the remote ones, not too susceptible to mixing with the locals. The trail goes on as far as the actual border with Mongolia, where it then goes cold. Which makes sense due to Mongolia's internal migration within its borders.

The evidence is clearly empirical, yet serves as as a convincing argument in favor of the premise given by Dr. Dutton. Of course, one could then argue that the spread happened in the eastward direction (from Finland to Mongolia), however, that appears somewhat less likely given the historically recorded migration trends.

All in all, it's a lot clearer now! The Finns are Finns, however, they used to live where the current Mongolians live! And as for the implied intermixing having taken place while they were there, so be it! Intermixing always makes for a stronger gene pool!! And as Mongolians and Finns are very appealing visually, both nations should be proud of this implied "connection".
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reply written by Anon, August 14, 2009
Miscegenation is wrong, unnatural, and disgusting.
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reply written by Anon, August 14, 2009
All European monarchs are descended from Huns? Give me a break here. This is some of the most ridiculous ethnic nationalism I've ever seen. The only crap that stinks even worse is flat-out Afrocentrism.
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reply written by ub, May 20, 2009
to Freethinker there,
So are you saying that "mongolian blue spot" is the result of drunkenness?
It's no wonder the Swedish hate your guts (no mercy here). Plus I don't really think we, Mongolians, can be related to such people. There is no resemblance of any kind, even the way we live is completely different.

to Finish people---
Don't go around thinking too much into this article. We, Mongolians have never thought you as having any relations to us of any sorts.
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reply written by Freethinker 2308, May 14, 2009
I agree with TGB. The likes of Edward Dutton enjoy wallowing in pseudoscientific tripe, promoting once-blossoming attitudes of sleazy 19th century National Romantic hogwash. Check out these maps that are reproductions from "An Introduction to Anthropology" by Beals & Hoijer et al, 1965.

http://westernparadigm.wordpress.com/2007/12/05/the-blonde-map-of-europe/

http://westernparadigm.wordpress.com/2008/02/26/the-blue-eye-map-of-europe/

Would it make sense for the most blond and blue-eyed people in the world have mongol origins when Asians have black hair and brown eyes?
And as modern science has concluded that all blue-eyed people derive from a common ancestor, does this mean that blue-eyed Swedes, Germans and Dutch etc, who share this trait with the Finns, have a common Mongol forefather? If no, please explain why not?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,327070,00.html

How much support does that ridiculous tin-foil hat Richard Kittles, have for his claim in the academic world? His pathetic "Mongol theory" is based on his assumption that haplogroup N originated in Asia and that the high frequency in Finns is an indicator of an Asian ancestry. This theory has been dismissed by mainstream science as controversial and speculative but there is growing support for the claim that N did in fact originate in Europe (Eastern) and migrate from West to East and not the other way around.
The following is from a Y-chromosome diversity study in Sweden published in The European Journal of Human Genetics (2006) "The fourth most frequent haplogroup in Sweden was N3 (10%). This haplogroup is mostly present in the northern Swedish regions, indicating a closer relationship with Saami and Finnish populations, in which N330, 31 is very common (this is discussed further below). Tambets et al suggested that the higher diversity found in eastern Europe (compared to Siberia) would make eastern Europe a possible origin for this haplogroup. The time for its expansion remains, however, unclear."

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v14/n8/full/5201651a.html

As for the birthmarks that are supposed to indicate a mongol spot on Finnish babies, and that universally-thick idiot Marusics J curve, I am 100% sure that if a serious study on birth defects and drunks had included the rest of the European people, we would't even be having this ridiculous academically inane discussion. What complete and utter drivel!







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reply written by td, May 13, 2009
im finnish and always wondered why i look like conan and am as strong as a f#&ing ox. now it all makes sense
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reply written by TGB, April 18, 2009
Absurd, what the original accusation was. was that eastern-europeans/pan-aryans were not "Europid" because of the disproportionate differences in skull & DNA, that they could not be catagorized as "Europid". I am sure there are some mixed eastern-europeans with ancient Mongol blood, but it would be a lie to say that eastern-europeans have there own racial catagory because of mongol admixture. The fact is they (eastern-europeans) have their very own racial traits different from any other group proves it was not a result of admixture but of enviromental development.
Bottom line is, the Fins, as a racial group, have nothing in common with Mongolians.
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reply written by AttilatheHun, April 04, 2009
Interesting. How about Hungarians? They speak Hunnic language. They consider themselves descendents of the Huns who were basically the mongoloids. Huns are the proto Mongols. They are even proud of naming their sons by the name Attila. Of course, many of their babies will be born with the Mongolian spots.

It was the women Huns brought with them when they advanced toward Europe to conquer them and settled down in Hungary. Women teach language to their kids. And it propagates generation after generation. Men, most of the time adopts to the language of the women they marry. So, Hun men married to the native women in other part of the Europe adopted the native language while Hungarians kept their original one at least structurally.

Europeans have been subjugated by mongoloids many times(Huns, Mongols). But not the other way around. Even the European monarchs are all the male line Attila the Hun descendents if you really want to know. He had over 200 wives(queens) most of them are native Europeans. All of the gold(tons and tons) taken from Rome was distributed to his sons and daughters. How and why do you think the northern Europeans managed to take off the name stamp of barbarians called by the Romans for centuries? It was the gold!!!!

Who was the Robin Hood for the task?

Attila the Hun!!!!

He took the gold from the rich and corrupt Rome and gave it to the less privileged northern Europeans. Otherwise there would have been no prosperity for the most part of the northern Europeans as you see today.

His monumental achievement is grossly underestimated and unappreciated by the present and past historians.
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reply written by Argentum Vulgaris, March 21, 2009
It would appear the Finns are racist, where pride should be being the descendants of proud ancestors like the Mongolians. I personally find the features of the Mongolian attractive. I had never heard of this "Mongolian Spot". I have a small birthmark, does this mean... Mongolians reached new Zealand. I believe the Maori of new Zealand also have the referred to gene and they came from South America in the 1300s; having in turn migrated down the Americas from Alaska.

AV
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reply written by Hosoo, January 27, 2009
Who gives a shit? I don't give a rat's ass if they think it's a shame to be considered "Mongoloid" or whatever. Obviously, they're the one who got issues with their skin.
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reply written by Kukkahattu, January 09, 2009
" I heard that Finns are born with Mongol spot, which proves they have Mongol origin. "
Bullsh..

Birthmarks in 4346 Finnish newborns.
epartment of Dermatology, University Hospital of Tampere, Finland.

We examined all babies born live (4346) at two Finnish hospitals in the course of one year to determine the frequency of birthmarks, specially pigmented lesions, among Finnish newborns. All birthmarks excluding common salmon patches on the forehead and neck were recorded and photographed at birth. The babies were re-examined at the age of three months. Various birthmarks were recorded for 241 of 4346 babies, i.e. for 5.5% of all newborns. Ninety-one (2.1%) infants had congenital pigmented skin lesions, 167 (3.8%) had various vascular lesions and 21 (0.5%) had other birthmarks. The frequency of congenital melanocytic naevi was 1.5%. Most of the naevi were less than 20 mm in diameter. Only one child had a giant naevus. The frequency of congenital naevi in our study was the same or somewhat higher than previously described (1-smilies/cool.gif but fewer other pigmented skin lesions were found than in previous studies perhaps due to racial differences.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1350148
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reply written by Scott Gardner, January 04, 2009
The argument for the origin of peoples is ongoing, but with the advances in genomic analysis, we should have the general answers or origin very soon. It just takes continual development of science and especially genetics and molecular biology.
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reply written by ontstaan, January 01, 2009
Chimid4: "It is sad to see Asians from buddhist countrys embracing christianity and than looked surprised when learn that those who converted them still sees them as lower race no matter how much you belive in same "God" as they!"

It is indeed sad, for a variety of reasons. Many wealthy Christian groups are keen to extend their sphere of influence - easy to do in a relatively cash-poor society. Why do they do this? Because they are afraid.. frightened of the "threat" they perceive from buddhist concepts such as reincarnation and the absence of a compassionate ultimate being.

Spirituality is not measured in dollars. I wish some of my mongolian friends would realise this.
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reply written by chimid4, December 31, 2008
Beats me INTJay! I just read it somewhere and remembered it because it makes sence to me (and yes that is buddhist perception). It's logic if you think about it- animals don't do intentional evil things like humans and that's great plus for them! If they could read and understand what is written they would be better then us.
I think it's good idea to take Selly to Papua but if natives are not yet informed about different flavours try to convince them to first take one bite out of each?
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reply written by INTJay, December 29, 2008
If ever I venture into the backcountry of Papua New Guinea I will be sure to take Selly with me...since she will be the better tasting one. (go ahead,,,laugh,,,it's OK)

Chimid4 that is interesting that you mention the difference in humans and animals being in language/words/comprehension of. Is this a teaching found in Buddhisim? Just curious. If so, what is a reference text to the teaching?
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reply written by chimid4, December 29, 2008
What stupid comment by Selly- I can not belive this! "God created human and I'm proud to be Mongolian!"
Not to say anything about the cannibalistic part!!
Humans are created by evolution and only reason why all humans are the same and why are we different from animals is fact that we can learn to read and to understand the meaning of the words thus comprehend the Dharma- teachings of the Lord Buddha and eventually to become Enlightened. It is sad to see Asians from buddhist countrys embracing christianity and than looked surprised when learn that those who converted them still sees them as lower race no matter how much you belive in same "God" as they!
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reply written by lostinmongolia, December 29, 2008
then us Mongolians will be the most salty people in the world. We even put salt in our tea!And we eat stinky mutton....he he he he.
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reply written by Selly, December 29, 2008
Recently I have read that white european people smelly and taste very salty to canibals in papua new guinea: Anthropologist Olga Ammann describes it more succinctly in the book. She quotes people who have eaten other humans: “The meat of white people smells too strongly and is too salty.”
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reply written by Selly, December 29, 2008
European people should stop your stupid idea that you look better than others! Shit holes!
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reply written by Selly, December 29, 2008
So what? Why one have to be ashamed to be mongoloid? God created human and I'm proud to be Mongolian! Do you want to say we are not human? Finnish people have to be proud to have mongolian features! Mixed race always looks better!
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reply written by Selly, December 29, 2008
So what? Why one have to ashamed to be mongoloid? God creates us and I'm proud to be Mongolian! Finnish people have to be proud to have mongolian features! Mixed race always looks better!
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reply written by Selly, December 29, 2008
So what? Why one have to ashamed to be mongoloid? God creates us and I'm proud to be Mongolian! Finnish people have to be proud to have mongolian features! Mixed race always looks better!
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reply written by chimid4, December 27, 2008
I would guess that Mongols of Europe would be Kalmyk, no? Maybe Ugric and Finnic people have originated from different areas of Euroasia than rest of Europeans but that does not make them Mongols. Mongol nation is established by Gengis Khan in 13th century and Finns have been in Finland long time before that, or so I'm told. Maybe authors of this text have some alternative history info?
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reply written by INTJay, December 24, 2008
Sounds very similar to the lack of attention that African studies receives in a Western classroom of America.
"Black Spark White Fire" is a good book for starters.
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reply written by sumya, December 23, 2008
Interesting article. I heard that Finns are born with Mongol spot, which proves they have Mongol origin.

Cheers,
Sumya
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reply written by MNS062808, December 07, 2008
I honestly don't see why any Finn should feel 'inferior' to the rest of Europe. If they have Mongol genes, so what?
Haven't folks gotten past racial and ethnic stereotyping yet?

Were I of Finnish extraction I would be quite proud of having descended from such a proud and far-ranging people.

Good article and a sound endorsement of those who can afford to get their DNA traced. Knowing where you came from always can be of help to where you want to go.

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