Mind the Mines. Mongolia’s Chess on a Golden Board.

A Western miner like Rio tino knows that the only thing that will work in the long run is a deal where all parties win. (People, government and company) They have mining operations all over the world and are there for the long run. Companies like Rio Tinto are investor owned and most of the investors hold them accountable for making a profit and being there for the long run. The investors that matter are the institution investors rather than the individual investors as most shares are owned by institutional investors. No I am not Mongolian, I am a westerner, an individual investor and I do have a good understanding of Mining and how it works around the world. How Mongolia chooses to move forward is Mongolia's decision. If the investors can not live with what Mongolia chooses, then they will just go elsewhere and Mongolia will have to look at the alternatives. Realize though that Rio Tinto is #1 in the world at developing these type of deposits - you will not get a better deal from anyone else. With Russia and China - well all I will say is that Mongolians are well aware of how these two operate.

@ outsider. Thank you for your last comment, I absolutely agree with you.

@admin: is it possible to invert the sequence of the comments as to have the last at the top without scrolling down? ....Thanks

I found this interview article interesting from the Mongolian Mining Journal..

http://www.mongolianminingjour...Itemid=188

I can't help but briefly comment on the following. There seems to by an implied divide between foreigners and Mongolians, while i believe in this discussion the more important divide is between those primarily concerned with the perspective of investors and those primarily concerned with the perspective of Mongolia, in which case i belong to the latter.
From this viewpoint i do have to react on some of the comments regarding the current state of Mongolia.

Yes the era of the Mongol empire is far away and mostly irrelevant to the current situation, but it does show that Mongolia was able to create a "home grown" nation state that was tough but fair and well organised. However for the last century Mongolia has been subject to imported state systems for which the implementation has been forced down the throat.
The benefits from communism were that: 1) instructions where more or less centralized; 2) it provided stable and good services to its citizens, like health care and education; 3) poverty was barely existent. The overshadowing downside obviously is the lack of personal freedom, which makes the transition to democracy/capitalism an undeniable necessity. However with that transition - and the gain of personal freedom - the three above mentioned benefits disappear.
Education and health care is comercialised, creating an even stronger divide between the rich and the newly emerged poor.
Instead of clear instructions from Moscow, Mongolia suddenly finds an extraordinary influx of donors and international organisations. They aim to help, but always come with their own agenda attached. For every dollar/euro/yen/ruble/rmb given a direct influence on policy is not always required, but often enough assumed. The amounts handed are huge and the young democracy might not yet have developed the right infrastructure to deal with that in a transparent way.

Don't understand me wrong - i am not trying to play the blame game. I do want to emphasize that it is not fair for outsiders to come and shout things about Mongolia being uneducated, poor or unstable without realizing that the current status is mainly created under foreign influence.

I am just trying to imagine how i would feel if my country would be dazed with contradicting foreign influence for 20 years, only to be blamed for the downsides of that influence by some foreigners who's interest primarily is their own financial gain. I might actually get a bit rebellious.

@shagai
well - my understanding is - also based on the article above, that IVN/Rio Tinto might be out if there is no deal before Naadam, or is that not what Elbegdorj was referring to?
Anyway - suppose we have consensus on the fact that IVN/Rio Tinto are the best partners, this would be a great common ground.

Next question is what kind of agreement:
@mano you say "I think the government should not be part or hold equities, but only find the right taxation system." This is what Elbegdorj is saying as well, right? So why? What are the benefits?

@Shagai thanks for your comments. I think they indeed help getting a clearer picture of the Mongolian perspective.
As for the companies: my understanding is that IVN is mostly interested in the discovery of sites and doesn't have much capacity to carry the whole thing through. Rio Tinto might be the main partner as it has an agreement already to increase their shares in OT, but is probably waiting for the investment agreement to actually do so. The Manager of OT is already a Rio Tinto person.

it's not a matter of disrespect. and coming up again with the story of the great mongolian empire is only good for history books and personal culture....it's a terrible excuse to hold on of what mongolians were ...society moves on and so the people do..we should evaluate a nation how is moving forward... Mongolia, in my modest opinion, is capable to do better but is loosing time and pace compared to other countries...34% of the population under poverty line with all the natural resources and the aid received by friendly countries does not justify anymore the present situation. People, both mongolians and foreigners, expected better results.....I personally would blame only the political parties/Government which have the duty to make the decisions on behalf of their people....the opportunities are there for good deals between Mongolia and other countries/investors. it is useless to blame the outside world, although it is easier ...

I do understand as an investor. But you also need to understand that the world will NEVER be the way it once was.

Mongolia NEEDS to have an modern, educated population or you WILL be taken advantage of.

Be it China, Russia or western powers.

You are a proud people with a long and proud history. It's time to start a new chapter and take your rightful place in today's modern world.

We, Mongolians have history dating back thousands of years. One time we conquered the existing world of that time and made everyone fall on their knees and respect us.

We are proud and ancient people.We have survived as an independent nation after losing so much our land (parts of Xinjiang, whole inner Mongolia) We don't like to be told what to do and how. We, as a nation want to be treated respectfully and fairly. You, investors needs to understand that. I'm assuming that many investors read this page. Our tradition dictates certain behavior for guests/investors.
Mongolians are very hospitable and treats guests with honor. However, this should not be abused or misused.
What else? I will not be posting again as it might continue endlessly? I' hoping that investors understood something from these comments.

Sain uils delgerch, Mongol uls maani hogjin tsetsegleh boltugai.

No doubt that the Oyu Tolgoi contract will be passed soon. In meantime, people like Esta and Barry are painting our country with their baseless and negative comments.

As investors you always have choice to sell your shares and buy shares of other companies with potential for quick returns.

Esta, you are impatient and cash-hungry and short-sighted investor.
Oyu Tolgoi deal is for patient and wise, intelligent and fair investors. I'm not saying that you are stupid and unfair. No.
But no doubt that you are impatient.

Think of Mongolia as one majority shareholder of IVN company. Like you,minority shareholders of IVN Mongolia or Mongolians want fair deal and profit. You have to understand this..

I did not learn english to insult and quarrel with foreigners. If graduating university in Mongolia with cum laude diploma qualifies for having brain cell, i have that.

I can't influence the OT deal. However, I'm sure that my views partially represent certain segments of Mongolian society.

To Mongol girl: basics of economy is how to use limited resources in most effient ways. That is what our government is trying to do with this negotiation. How to benefit Mongolia and Mongolians most from this huge deal. What is wrong with that?

Well, no doubt that Rio is best partner for Mongolia. Given the track record of IVN (Colorado spill and cooperation with Burmese military junta), it may not be the best partner for Mongolia. However, do Mongolia have choice to turn down IVN? No.
So Rio and IVN are the best partners outthere, my 2 cent. I hope that IVN will not be led by these short-sighted, hungry for quick return investors.These minority shareholders are certainly not the type of investors Mongolia government would want to deal with?
They have no thoughts on Mongolia.

so for Mongolia there are 2 initial choices: timing and partner. I think actually the timing itself doesn't matter much, except that when it takes off it will have some positive economic impact and you might argue that the sooner the better for that. The timing does however matter in relation to the partner choice if Rio Tinto and IVN are the best possible partners out there it seem the Mongolian Government should hurry. So the question is: are they? Are Rio and IVN the best partners for the OT deal?

Whats all this about white racists and supremists?

Most western countries are vibrant multicultural societies built on immigration from all over the world. They share the same economic policies.

Do you not realise that much of this economic policy is shared not just by these "Rich" western countries but also countries such as Japan, Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong almost all other Asian countries, India etc...

Its not about race.

this is a debate forum...we should not insult each other and stick to the issue which is how to reach the best mining agreement!!!! each of you should put its proposal ...simple as that! I think the government should not be part or hold equities, but only find the right taxation system.

Why are people so paranoia around here?
First of all no one in this forum is likely to have any significant say in what will actually happen to the mining agreements. That is probably why we come to a place like this to ventilate our thoughts. So all of us are insicnificant stakeholders. We might have a few shares, we might care deeply about the development of our country, but we are united in the fact that don't have the capacity to really change the game.
So why not take that as a starting point and see if - from our mutual marginal positions we can actually learn something from one another.

correction----> They would NOT have changed my opinion on the subject.

@ Hatanbold. It's pathetic, isn't it? how they're trying to disguise themselves as Mongolians. The first sign of desperate attempts to try and slam us down with their hateful comments. No wonder any of these fools didn't write a single sentence or word for that matter in Mongolian.
Ed nar odoo bid nariig erguu malnuud geed bodtsiin baihdaa. "Mongolian girl" ch geh shig, whatever whaha.
They make themselves feel superior with their "brain cells" talk and "decent logical conversation" speeches. Let me tell you something, write something in Mongolian and maybe then I'll try and believe that you're someone of remotely Mongol origin (at least). Till then, i don't believe any of you!

I agree with "tired of mining agreement exchanges" that no matter you win this silly argument on the Internet these people are still gonna think what they think and they would not change my opinion on the subject.

U do not need to know economics to talk about mining - enough to be a p[atriot and love your country and people. edn baigaa zarim neg hun hudlaa mongol hunii neriig bairad baina shuu.

Barry needs a spell checker, could you implement that please. All the sites he posts on re OT and the IA are rife with errors. Occasionally he even has numbers in the words. It is hard to take him seriously when he is clearly uneducated.

I find this thread hilarious actually because arguing on the INTERNET is like the special Olympics, even if you win you are still retarded.

Hahaha. I am not sure on the question of males and brain cells, but that might be because i am male. Anyway i appreciate the recent female input.
I take Mongol Girl's point that it is difficult to understand why people would have gone through all the effort of learning a foreign language just to insult others. But i most of all really enjoy that Esta is so far from the stereotype.
I might just lay awake thinking what "beyond my dreams" would entail...

To Mongol girl - GO GIRL GO!! I was reading all the insults and wonder - do these men have brain cells??!!Thanks for the guys that stood up for me but those that insulted me - I am not a man , I am a woman and I do not own a coffee shop but something beyound your dreams , I am not black nor American and the only concern for me is to get value for my money in what I invest!

It is so sad!
Mongol men, it is time to take a good look at yourselves! Even when you learnt foreign language, you only excelled at insulting people but you did NOT learn to have a decent logical conversation based on analysis, facts and data. I wish you guys at least sit and learn the basics of economics instead of proudly showing how blank and rude you are ...

Mongol girl

well, seems this discusion has been taken over by equally small minded people blaming either foreign investors or mongolian nationalists for the lack of success.
It one issue i can see however is that there should be consensus among Mongolian politicians to have the agreement pass. The fact that there is no consensus - regardless of claims of coruption - is not a bad thing. It is democracy.

I believe there is a common ground and a possible way out of the impasse, but if it doesnt happen - it only proves that there is no totalitarion regime in Mongolia

We will pullback North Americans!

Mongolia could be unimportant in the eyes of world community..... However,these investment deals and issue of foreigners in Mongolia taking our jobs are very important for us.... I aint no racist. But I ain't brother to non-mongolians.

To "Moglian in Mongolia"

Well, what's wrong for Mongolia to delay the Oyu Tolgoi deal when we are not sure how it will affect the whole south gobi region and its people and livestock animals? What if after years of mining the whole area turned into lifeless desert without any water sources except toxic wastes?

What if residents of south gobi aimag turn to Ivanhoe mine and say " you are polluting our water sources and land with toxic wastes"? Then the company might say " well, we have concluded investment agreement with your government and it is not your problem." Then if Mongolian government finds out that environment is really being polluted by the company and Mongolia can't do much as it signed this agreement. What if after 30 years of operation (first term of the investment agreement) all the gold and copper reserve of Oyu Tolgoi finishe as the company operates 24/7? If so, what is the use for Mongolia owning 50% of something empty?
My understanding is Mongolia is supposed to own 50% of the Oy Tolgoi after 30 years of operation according to this agreeement? What is the guarantee that what happened in other countries (africa, congo, latin america-peru, ecuador)will not be repeated in Mongolia? These foreign mining companies plundered the resources and went home. Locals left with big pits with toxic wastes and slurries. These toxics filtrated into water sources and babies with deformations born. As we say in Mongolia (doloo hemjij neg ogtol) "measure seven times and cut once". All these investigation and considerations takes time. I understand that those investors who expected quick return of investment were frustrated. As i said before and they confirmed before, there are many other places with more resources and opportunities, why don't they go there and invest? They just whine and moan and still hang around here.

I was not against western investors. I was just saying that we have to distinguish the investors and retain the ones who are really benefitting Mongolia in terms of know-how and job creation. I know in Mongolia we have many so-called investors/cooks, bricklayers from China and South Korea which are here to exploit Mongolia's cheap labor. Many western investors don't belong to this "flies-Yalaa category of investors.
What is wrong with my statement "mongolia for Mongolians only." This is our land and our country. Is this land also for other nations according to you? We welcome foreign guests. But we don't want them to stay here and compete with Mongolians and taking jobs from us!

I assume that you are an expatriate who staying here for many years and know Mongolia. What the legal status of Mongolians staying in America have to do with hte posts here. Are you an official of Immigration and Naturalization Service? What are you doing in this web? or in Mongolia.
With this mindset, i assume that you really hate Mongolians and Mongolia?

Go back to your boring and stupid life of 9 to 5 routine be it in Europe or States and work like a machine/donkey.

the only tolerable and respectful West-Europeans are Germans I suppose. Busad n dandaa ashig honjoo harsan amitad baigaa biz dee? Yalanguya ter Canad-chuud ikh zevuun baigaa shuu!

hehe, and if you want, perhaps you want to chat with me in UB over some coffee, huh? I'll gladly meet you, oh-so phony "Mongolian in Mongolia" and see who's working illegally or not ey???

Whahaha, this "Mongolian in Mongolia" is too ridiculous to be true! Are you honestly trying to convince me that you're Mongolian???? U haven't written one sentence in Mongolian. So stop your stupid pretense and get over this horribly pathetic act. Yes Mongolia has its problems and no one's denying it. But if you think this has silenced us, you're horribly mistaken. Let me see if you can understand this: Muu teneg yalaa min chi amaa medej hutsaarai. Cham shig hooson tolgoinuud haramsaltai n Mongoloor duuren bolchihood hetsuu baigaag hen buhen medej bui,. Gadaadiinhii bugsiig dolooj yavahad chamd saihan bna uu?! Chaddag um bol chi nad ruu erguuleed Mongoloor bicheed yavuul za,. Only idiots like u cry racism, when you can't obviously continue a decent debate. Have fun in Mongolia NOT doing anything productive. Unlike you i have traveled to extend my knowledge and NOT flip burgers as you so intricately put it.
Cham shig neg Mongoloo novshiin gadaaduudiin hajuud doromjildog teneg Mongoliig bi l lav amidraldaa uzeegui um bna. Tiim bolhoor chi Mongol bish!

PS: "look at YOUR country..." if this is not an obvious give away that you're NOT a Mongolian, i don't know what is. lol
U must think I'm an idiot. What a phony!

Mongolia! you are so unimportant in the global scheme of things! get over yourselves.
don't worry the whites you so very much hate will soon be gone and then you can be happy about what you have achieved. look at your country! all the garbage and plastic flying around in the country side.you should be ashamed of yourselves! look at UB! dirty, messy and not one Mongolian gives a damn! if anyone is self righteous its the Mongolians. backward looking. only the past is what matters. the great Chinggis Khan! worshiped like a god, but nothing learned form him! (Chinggis had soldiers that urinated into the rivers killed. would be a good way to start some discipline, where every second Mongolian man urinates where ever he pleases!)
I agree, most of the foreigners complaining that the IA is not yet signed are (white) business people who would like to actually do some business.
But their complaints is nothing compared to the nationalistic blabber coming from the few Mongolians (or the majority?) "if you dont like it leave!" "mongolia for mongolians!" "you are flies"... is like listening to kids in grade school who are upset because they dont get the grape juice box!
you are to proud of a people, and nothing to be proud of. Thats the key issue.
And to the person above: Why have you lives 1/3 of your life abroad?? Mongolia doesnt seem to have all you need ey? Double standard I'd say.
Put your money where you mouth is mate, and step up and take office. Barkers form the bleechers are unwelcome.
Have fun at Burger King and being an illegal alien in the US!

This person "done with mongolia" should really take a good look at your fellow foreigners' comments, attacking our people with their condescending remarks and attitude. If you guys acted respectful and didn't start your subtle yet accusatory remarks then we wouldn't have been in this situation, arguing back and forth. And yeah, maybe those people SHOULD leave if they feel like we are not "licking" their shoes enough. Mongolia is not known for its racism, but for its centuries old hospitality. When tourists come to the countryside they mostly stay at local herdsmen's yurt for free! I don't see them complaining. Plus if you're gonna talk about racism we could go into whole another ball game. Just look at the U.S., the most democratic country in the world, look at Japan, France, French Canadians and the list will go on and on. Yes Mongolia is a homogeneous country, but that's what happens when you're thrust into this whole "globalization" process all of a sudden. I've lived abroad 1/3 of my life and I KNOW there are racist people everywhere! Mongolia has one of the smallest population in the World, just reaching 2.7 recently, for its land mass. And I would like to see how any of you would like it if you were on a same boat. But seeing that you're so righteous and overly critical of Mongolians, you would probably dismiss it as one of our racist outbursts. But we have a saying "Black crow will not see his own blackness but only others' blackness". Perhaps my remarks will not reflect views of the other Mongolians, but I will leave my comments regarding this hateful accusations from foreigners against Mongolians. Have a nice day!!!

PS: I wonder if you would accuse Russia and China being racist towards foreigners??? But concerning various aids we receive, we are playing a political game that has nothing to do with your feelings.

mongolia is a racist and foreigner-unfriendly country. end of story.
all investors should pull out, and all aid should be stopped.
the above comments towards "esta" are personal and discriminatory.
momngolians abroad should be treated the same way.
wake up! the world is one place and at tleast the free loving countries should stand above statements like "mongolia is for mongolians only"!
that is just racist and nationalistic.
join north korea! who is the real "fool"???

angry people do not need help.
you can help yourselves!
good bye!

Huuye ta nar boliochee ch geh shig, ene hen be chi?? Uuriihnuu heleh gesniig heleed duusgana biz uur humuusiin umnuus uuchlalt guigaad ch baih shig.

We understand that this mining deal is crucial to us, that's why the government is taking long to finalize the deal. Whatever the case is, playing the blame game will not further the case at hand. But having said that, the "scare" tactics and insults will NOT be appreciated.

To Davaa,
chinii uhaantai baigaa chin tegeed haana bna? I don't like to see people arguing this way, but i will defend my people, more so than the country, against horrible accusations like we are the ones deciding it. Come on let's face it, i don't really think pointing out their subtle attacks constitute to being uneducated or being ignorant. If they want to point their fingers and accuse regular Mongolians of being overly nationalistic and undeserving of this Mining project than I will put my two cents here, whether these people like it or not, and that includes you, Mister Davaa. I'm more than averagely educated, more so than you Davaaguai, so keep your high and mighty attitude to your snooty self. And furthermore, "a fool" is not really a profanity to be gasping and being horrified about.

And i bet you'll be singing a different tune, if they started personally insulting you. Uno hombre stupido!

It is interesting to see that some are trying to bring facts, data and information, and some others just writing pure rhetoric... which does not help the debate..
mongolia decided to open to market forces and change from the past..but can't come to a deal with foreign investors while other countries experiences did it in much shorter time with both sides profiting..
I think this raising populist and nationalism feeling is not benefiting the Mongolians,. we have seen it in history already..same old story..

Interesting comments. Shows anger on both sides. Sorry, for the poor very insulting language on Mongolian side. These are people reduced to using bad language because of ignorance, narrow thinking, poor education. Do not think all Mongolians are this way.

Huuyee ta nar boliochee, end bichij baigaa gadaad nuhduud unen l yum helsen baishd. Unen bodit baidliig tailbarlaj bas jisheetei bichsen baina. zaavaal mongol gadaaddaa gol ni bish zov yumiig bodit baidlaar haraach. ta nar uursdiihuu bichij baigaag haraach, buduuleg deerees ni medlegguige gaihuulsan utgagui yum bichij baih yum. Mongolchuudiin tuhai unen l helsen bn. bi mongol gehdee sanal neg baina. ichmeer yum daa ta nar!!

Maybe Esta invested 50 or 80 thousand bucks here running a coffee shop in UB and employing his mongolian wife? Hehe. Not enough customers ah?
Maybe you need to sell your shop and cash in and pack up and go home. We don't need so-called investors like you.
I'm sure big investors will stay here. Small fishes like you can go. No problem and nobody will care as your role or contribution for Mongolia is minimal.Most you were pocketing from Mongolia. Right? Not vice versa.
Big and wise investors are seeing the opportunities here and hanging on. Again we need to distinguish between "flies" and "honeybees" .

Big investors are the honeybees our Mongolia needs to retain. They will bring new technology and know-how. Not these coffee shop owners-flies.
Coffee shops and small businesses should be for MOngolians.

And to Esta there, go back to your Africans and South Americans, and stop your pretentious act that you're JUST trying to build a BETTER Mongolia. I hear those people appreciate your "efforts" more!
And to investor there, stop gabbing your head off you fool!

I suggest, you go back to your Africans that you love oh-so very much and spread your "love" and religion. Obviously, very few of you are here to really help.

These "white" foreigners are the great example of the "white supremacist" way of thinking. They think that they can just march right in and tell us what to do. But I'll tell you this once, instead of whining and bitching, why don't you just leave huh???? This sort of stuff was happening almost 5-6 years ago. And I wonder, why haven't they just left? it's because they want the riches with as little taxation and discomfort as possible for themselves. That's right, for THEMSELVES (They're NOT thinking about us). I say, you foreigners are so used to just having your way with minimal discomfort for yourselves and establishing your supremacy in emerging countries.. Well sorry, it's not as easy as you thought it would be!
And you guys think that bullying or "scaring" your way into Mongolia is the right thing to do???? You'll be even more hated and forget about being accepted. I doubt that you, foreigners, have the best interest for the Mongolians at heart. Just say as it is, stop this stupid act of "innocent helpers". When we were fighting for our independence from the Manchus (China) none of you were there to help. So shut up about us being taken over or some shit like that. If you're so disgusted by Mongolians, let me repeat, no one is begging you to stay there. We've existed long before any of you!

I think Ivanhoe and Rio are "honeybees" who have hired hundreds of mongols and bought supplies and provisions from mongolian businesses.Many mongolians are realize it.
Small and medium size businesses in Mongolia needs to be under mongolian hands only. we don't need a cook or bricklayer from china here.
I'm really hoping that Ivanhoe will get go-ahead from our government soon. Ivanhoe and Rio are honeybees..They are different than flies.

Hey Esta, go away. We will not miss you. I call you u foreigners " flies" who fly everywhere to shit on.We don't need flies here. We need honeybees who will really benefit us, mongolia.

Mongolia is not the place for you. You dumb ass think that you are doing good for us training and creating jobs in Mongolia. You have to do that as unseen hand of market dictates it. Mongolians will be much cheaper to hire than hiring somebody from us and west.
After all, it is issue that concerns us Mongolians and why we don't have a right to express our opinions.

You "fly" go to China or Russia. They might need you. I bet you are afraid to go there as these are too competitive places to do business.Mongolia has much opportunity and therefore, you flies hanging around here and cursing and whining.

Nobody is forcing you to stay here.... Mongolia is a democratic country that holds nobody against their will. Love Mongolia or Leave Mongolia. Choice is yours. You have to remember that Mongolia is for Mongolians only and for no others.

I think if Oyu Tolgoi deal as it is now passes, it will benefit few businesses in Mongolia that are owned by foreigners.... Ivanhoe needs to buy supplies and provisions from Mongolian businesses that are owned by Mongolians not by some foreigners who are married to Mongolian women etc.

I'm not against honeybees like Ivanhoe or Rio Tinto. We have to distinguish between flies and honeybees. Honeybees are those investors who are really investing something in Mongollia and really benefitting Mongolians rather than themselves.

I thin many foreign owned busineses, especially small businesses are owned by "fllies" who really contribute nothing here. These needs to be replaced by Mongolian businesses.

Event this website is not Mongolian. It is dutch run.

I am following this debate and I realy think that the Mongolians do not appreciate what foreigners are trying to do for them - training and creating jobs to enable them to feed their families. As Mongolia do not have the finacial ability to develop the country , foreigners are helping them to create a BETTER Mongolia for the people. I personally think that the investors must take their money and help countries that will appreciate the financial input in this dark economic times - I am going to pull out.

This thread shows exactly and 100% the deep divide between the (terrible) foreigners and the (always in the right) Mongolians on this issue.
I for one can only say, if the Mongolian people in general have this attitude (this is not just a few "bloggers", many more think this way), then we as a foreign people should leave the Mongolians to do their business the way they see fit. They are not little children that need to be spoon-fed (Maybe that's been the problem since 1991?) they are independent and should be left to try and learn form their own mistakes.
Ivanhoe and Rio Tinto can try again in 10 or 20 years. Until then I'd lock the gate and focus on better and more profitable mining projects in other places on the globe. There are enough, that's for sure.

Personally I simply do not care any longer, and I have spent many many years in Mongolia and have cared greatly for it's people. But not any more. Not because I have become indifferent, but because you seem to be on top of everything and can do it all by yourselves. All the best.

Decent debate, here. For my two cents, the only thing the Russians will do well are pay off the men in power and fail to deliver on any sort of decent explotation of the resources. The Chinese will at best take over the southern third of Mongolian while stripping the land of any value beyond what is buried. Think about it. All there is to lose is your country.

This is just a joke. The Mongolian government cannot be trusted. They are so corrupt. There will be no agreement till everyone gets their pockets lined with bribery.
The international mining community should boycot the country by stopping all future investments in exploration.
Wake up and do what is right for your people.

I am afraid that from the Mongolian side in this blog, I see little understanding of economics and what it takes to make a mine nor how mining companies operate. All I see is we want money, money. money. "Mongolia is playing hardball so if you do not like it leave."

Yes, as an investor and I want a return on my investment. I would be stupid not to. Is that too difficult to understand? It is people like me (who is NOT a rich person) who have put money into exploration companies (and yes I also, work very hard for a living as most investors do), that at the invitation of Mongolia government have carried out exploration, have hired Mongolians, (oh yes Mongolian Law ....the only country in the world with this law.... requires 10 or more Mongolians to be hired for every one foreigner), spent money in Mongolia, created conditions for new building developments, discovered with great effort and scientific intuition various deposits that the Russians and Chinese, when they were here, thought insignificant. These western companies have brought technological advances, educated many Mongolian scientists in methodolgies thay had no clue about under the Russian system. (Unfortunately, the majority of geologists coming out of Mongolian universities have very poor skills.) They are trying to develop at OT the largest producing shafts in the world (the next largest is in Australia). No Mongolian, Russian or Chinese company has this technology, and this deep deposit would not make money without this technology.

Despite various non-Mongolians pointing out that other countries in the world, that are wealthy from mining, have no problem with 'foreign' companies. The Mongolians in this blog feel, despite the fact that Mongolia is borrowing money, somehow these westerners are trying to steal Mongolia's riches. To me and many this is fear out of ignorance of reality, lack of education or lack of knowledge of other countries in the world.

Is an effective tax rate of over 70% for Mongolia (if the new President's random number of 50% is added), as pointed out by Sam, stealing from Mongolia? Wealthy Chile has no where near this in its tax rate and unlike Mongolia, who have done nothing, the Chilean government provides power and infrastructure to the mines. Any SANE person would say that Mongolia is being less than fair and reasonable.

I have provided references about other countries tax regimes, but either it is not read nor understood or rank Nationalism rules over logic and reason.

There are foreign companies in Australia, Canada, USA, Chile, Argentina, UK, Ireland, African countries etc and, as I said, these countries actively provide incentives to encourage 'foreign' companies to invest there. What is so different about Mongolia, who after providing incentives.... the next year impose restrictive laws and taxes that have done nothing to develop the countries riches?

Yes, I would like to see Mongolia succeed. Does that make me a do-gooder? Do I think it will happen with the current tax regime, restrictive laws and the way the government (controlled by party politicss and infighting) negotiates every single mining agreement. I think the chances are highly reduced. Do I hope Mongolians will see logic and reason? Yes. Do I see it in this blog? In some replies, yes. In others irrational Nationalism.

It is attitudes like those seen in some of the replies that will, if not changed, will keep Mongolia poor and allow their northern and southern neighbours to dominate them, if they force western mining companies out. I have been to Inner Mongolia. Not a pretty sight, with 2 million Mongolians, as cute tourist attractions, who must speak Chinese and over 25 million Chinese Han people dominating them.

If Mongolian businessmen and politicans took the time to clearly understand the economics of exploration and developing mines, visiting for a month or so places like Chile and even learning to do the discounted cash flow analyses themselves........rather than hiring 'experts' every six months to advise them, they might recognise the fairest way to move forward. Throwing out numbers and making up new laws without any forthought is hardly constructive. Six years, six years?? No revenue, no serious exploration, no jobs.................?

I think only some of these foreigners have the best interest for Mongolians, as for the rest, they are just looking to make an easy profit from an emerging country and its resources. There is no need to get all insulted and angry, if you don't like the proposition then move on to the next best thing. We're all looking to make money, it's a business after all.

As for me, I was not against any of the Mining projects but if you're going to whine and throw a tantrum then maybe it's not meant to happen. In any case, i hope it resolves soon, so we will have some peace at last.

Some very good comments have been made, thanks for contributing to the discussion, to all.
How can the Mongolian negotiators and others involved in consulting with the negotiators believe that 70% to 80% tax on profits is fair to miners?
Especially at OT, where Mongolia has contributed NOTHING to the exploration and development of this mine?
It appears to me that the Mongolian Government wants to make shure that any money spent on development and the resulting profits stay in Mongolia, 100%, forever.
I suggest that IVN / RTP sell the OT Mine to the Russians, at a fair price and go elsewhere.
with the present situation as it is, spending more money on OT is not the right thing to do.
If an IA is not signed before July 11, the end of the Spring SGK Session, negotiations will be set back 2 to 3 more years. Mongolia and its citizens will suffer for 10 years or more because of the setback that results in the mining industry.
Mongolia needs investors other than the Russians and the Chinese.
OT and TT and other large mines will be in operation for 100 to 200 years in the future, look at the long term benefits from getting this OT IA done, NOW.
I really believe that the Mongolian negotiators feel that IVN / RTP cannot afford to walk away. Not so, right now they cannot afford to stay.
Make a fair deal bsed on international standards.
Is that so tough?
Frustrated!!!!

It seems like this argument is dominated by a lot of rich, privileged white men who have lots of time on their hands to type long, meandering messages. You've earned your money, so congratulations.

As a Mongolian, on behalf of the Mongolian people, let me apologize that we're not making it easier for you to fatten your investment portfolios. I wish we could surrender more of our country to you Westerners, so that you can buy more stuff.

As far as you westerners looking out for our best interests, thanks for your generosity.

However, instead of these incredibly pretentious suggestions that you guys are looking out for the little guy (LOL okay wall street fat cats), I'd much rather you just give me some of your money.

As a Mongolian I've gotten some money of my own, shockingly by working for wages and not playing the stock game like you are.

But if I did play the stock and investing game, don't think for one minute I'd get all angry if it were stressful and not an easy thing to do.

I suggest maybe you work at McDonalds or do something more practical with your time instead of just moving imaginary money and getting angry when it's not as easy as you dreamed. Have fun on your yacht, Biff.

Investors in foreign countries can try to play the "angel" game all the want in order to justify themselves (to THEMSELVES), however the whole point of investing in the first place is because investors want to get rich.

Yeah, RICH.

So don't get all sanctimonious and butt-hurt just because the Mongolians are playing hard ball with you in order to get more of your money -- after all, they have something you want, and you want more money, too.

If you don't like to play the game when someone is playing just as hard as you guys are, I suggest you play somewhere else.

note that, the Australian minerals industry began in similar circumstances in the 1960's with the government on the one hand realising the importance of the value of the world-class nickel, coal and iron-ore resources to the economy and on the other negotiating tough, tax deals with the mining giants. In hind-sight, 50 years on, was there any other option other than to take the optimistic view of economic progress and sign on to the project developments, and now seeing the economy grow. Where does Australia stand now in the global minerals industry, pretty good I think. I dont think Australia feels raped by private investment in the minerals sector, I think its provided a hot-bed of innovation and technological development to a world-class standard.

As an outside observer its a big call for the fledgling Mongolian economy to sign an agreement as significant as the OT project but can the Mongolian mind-set overcome their anxieties and see the big- picture? I hope so because it has paid-off in so many other countries that are now benefiting from their decisions.

This is a very healthy discussion and although it gives insight in the feeling of many involved, I must say that I regret it becomes focussed nearly entirely on finger pointing for who it blame for what.
Let's be honest, many foreign mining companies or joint ventures operate in Mongolia with a lower profile but rather successful.
Of course everybody agrees with the fact that the two neighbor countries are more interested in the mineral reserves than the people living here. We can see the devastating result in outdated industries and infrastructure the Russian's left here for example.
But also face the fact that Mongolia realizes it needs western countries AND still maintain good relationships with its neighbors (who together make up 70 % of its foreign trade) by developing a successful third neighbor policy focussed on the United States, the European Union and Japan mainly.
The country can sell out its vast mineral reserves only ones and needs to make a good structural decision for the next 35 years at least. Maybe that takes a little more time in a young democracy but we're not talking peanuts here.
And of course the time has come now after 6 years of negotiating (but no signed deal was ever broken!!!) and many drafts, that Mongolia makes a decision on this issue. It is far better than what is happening now, Mongolia's youth, the future of this great country is being burdened with a huge dept, not only to the west with the IMF loan for example, but mainly to its neighbors...I wouldn't want to be in the position of the future generation when these debts have to be paid back without Mongolia has made a successful (for the country and its partners) deal. The providers of these loans might just take what they see as a collateral (mineral resources)?
Lets all work together to start good and sustainable mining, to fight corruption, to invest in education of the children of this country and to develop a good infrastructure and health care for all.

Mongolian people should recognise that foreign investment actually helps the country more than it hurts.

Korea, Japan, Singapore and China all became wealthy countries because it welcomed foreign investment (from the West). Western companies came in and taught locals how to run factories, use new technology etc. The Koreans/Japanese and Chinese then used this knowledge to start up their own factories and then sold the products at a lower price than the Western companies. Sure western companies made some money in the short term, but the Country itself benefited in the long term.

Mining I acknowledge is a bit different although the same benefits still apply. Many of the geologists in Mongolia learned their skills working for Ivanhoe.

The problem is often though corrupt Governments who misuse the funds that they receive through their taxes and royalties. In the end that is all this argument has come down to - money. How much money Mongolia and Mongolian people will receive. Hence the promise of 1.5m MNT for each person. It is such a short sigted policy that will really hurt your country.

This is falling into the same trap as the many countries in Africa. Instead of focusing on money - you should focus on knowledge/technology transfer and protection of the environment. Instead of taxing the companies 50% plus 5% royalties plus 20% withholding tax (total 75% tax) you should offer them an incentive to build a refinery so that the end product and revenue is much higher and there is a transfer of technology and knowledge. Only this way will Mongolia ever become independent as Korea, Japan and China are.

If you only focus on how much money you will receive you will end up like the African countries who took the money, corrupt officials spent it and when all the resources were gone, they were left with nothing.

If you end up scaring away all the western investors which is what is happening, you will be left with Chinese and Russian investors. They have never shown any concern for local employment, local wages or the environment. Mongolia will be much poorer for it.

Chinngis Khan actually realised this all those many years ago. He valued knowledge and recognised it was the key to sustaining the power of his empire. The best method of knowledge and technology transfer is through foreign investment and trade as has been proven over the last century.

If Mongolians want to ignore the lessons of history, including their own history, then it will be at their own peril. China and Russia are ready to pounce on your country. I know this is what you are trying to avoid, but your actions are actually making it much more likely to happen. Already your leaders have accepted large loans from these countries and joined with Russia to exploit uranium deposits.

The only people that have ever cared for the independence of Mongolia and democracy in Mongolia are Western Countries. Russia considers it part of its historic sphere of influence and China considers it part of China. Now Mongolia is on track to scare away all western investors. Rio Tinto will soon pull out of OT.

This will clear the way for the Chinese and Russians to increase their influence. With 1.2b people China only needs to move a 0.25% of their population across the border and they will control Mongolia.

I say leave Mongolia to the Russians and Chinese. Mongolian's clearly don't want us westerners there. China already counts Mongolia as part of its unofficial "One China" policy, its just the next logical step.

I am sure the Mongolian's will be able to get a much better deal from the Chinese and Russians.

Ivanhoe pays its employees well above the normal wage in Mongolia. How much do you think the Russians and Chinese will pay its Mongolian employees?

Good luck Mongolia.

Hey, guys (Mongols), the hard fact is that we have invited foreigners to invest in Mongolia and once these guys showed up we could not manage to give them a deal we promised for over 6 years now. Elbegdorj's statement on Bloomberg was irresponsible at least. He promised changes. The largest change he can bring to Mongolia and its people is to help the government make a deal, not reverse the process. Help his people get jobs and education, raise their living standards, not damage them. He will not keep them happy for long with empty words however eloquent he is. With his first interview he made the first real damage to Mongolia's reputation and standing in the international arena. I hope it will be his last mistake. As Mongol the last thing I want is to have Russians and Chinese coming all over us once more. I cannot let this happen again. I am sure you want that neither. Elbegdorj needs to stop being a populist and become a statesman, whose legacy will leave a mark in the history of Mongolia.

Ulzibat B - Can you give me any specific case where a 'western' foreign company (ie not Russian or Chinese) has been CONVICTED of polluting a river with toxins? Also, list at least ONE specific so called "disturbing action", if you can.

I think a lot about Mongolia as I have invested more than just money in companies there. I think Mongolia should be a rich and prosperous country. I am frustrated when I and hear much of Mongolia's ills blamed on western foreigners. Then at the same time see the what Mongolians are doing themselves from the things I talked about above to pollution, look at UB where you cannot breath in winter (it is like Beijing) ( I am glad to hear about banning plastic bags. I will wait to see if that actually will happen), to disregarding traffic laws showing no respect to pedestrians, driving on sidewalks in rush hour, poisoning people with methyl alcohol put into vodka etc etc.

With respect to competitive taxation did you search the pdf site I gave. The President on the one hand wants to have investors. I am explaining why it is a problem for investors and you are telling me to sell my shares and get out.

I point out specific instances of issues and I am called disrespectful. That is exactly the point I was making. Only foreigners can be blamed for issues, while it is disrespectful to point fingers at Mongolians. Am I mistaken?

With respect to the 50% tax mentioned by the President. I would like to know where that percentage was calculated from. Is it a number from a discounted cash flow study taking into account all the variable costs, taxes etc that mining companies, engineers and accountants are required to do by western law to determine the viability of a mining project. Or is it just picked at random as being half way between O and 100%? Was there any thought whether 50% tax would make the project unworkable?

Again look at the reference I gave to see if the very wealthy powerhouse in mining in South America ...Chile... that has no problem attracting foreign investment, has a 50% tax and some of the comments about how small changes in taxation in one place would make a gold project unviable there yet still be viable somewhere else. These are important economic concepts that I find few Mongolians, unfortunately, are familiar with.

With respect to "law is law' can any Mongolian tell me the specific charges against Boroo Gold? Like they been charged with dumping x tonnes of contaminated waste in some specific place? The charges against Boroo as I understand it....are like saying to me, "you are charged with robbing a person". What person? When? Where? Is that how the law works? What would you do if that happened to you?

If u, foreign investors, do not approve of the things that are boiling down in Mongolia concerning this mining agreement, you should have gotten out of it. It's no use complaining your frustrations to the Mongolian public. It seems to me u should be selling out your stocks or better yet, have this sort of discussion with the corporation, whose stocks and shares you hold (rather than scold Mongolians and write all of this)
And like Tjey said, we are not against this mining project so far as it resolves with profits for both parties. and yes, there have been instances where foreign companies disregarded the law, by dumping toxins into the rivers that directly flow by the city and other such disturbing actions. So for you to act so dismissive is beyond disrespectful to me. Whether it sounds "fishy" or not to you, law is a law.

Tjey - I have heard and read so much from Mongolians stirring up Nationalism stating Boroo and other foreign companies have done this or that wrong. From causing mecury pollution to not paying taxes.

There was a government commission that has suspended Boroo's licence during a workers' strike. Rather rotten fishy smelling to me! There are no 'specific' charges, just general statements about transgressions of the laws. It reeks of typical government interference to force the 'foreign' company to change the collective agreement already legally in place. This is so obvious to us 'foreign' investors it adds to our belief about how devious and untrustworthy the government can be.

Last year there were charges that Boroo were polluting the local river with mercury. Anybody with half a brain knows that the gold recovery process they use is cyanide and do not use mercury. The polluters were Mongolian placer miners........and guess what.... the issue just faded from the news. I have seen the same in the Gobi where I saw a water well being polluted with mercury by Mongolians trying to mill gold. I could see all the mercury in the tailings. Did the local government hen informed do any thing? No, "these are just poor Mongolians trying to make a living." This despite local herders and livestock drinking the water. This is happening all over Mongolia by MONGOLIAN placer miners and nothing is done to stop it.

Talking of tax evasion, what about that discovered last year, in an independant audit for the government, by an Australian accounting company? What ever happened to the $25million, they found missing, that was paid by all the mining companies to the government? Whose pockets did that dissappear into? That quickly faded from the news headlines.

Similarly, I suspect the charges of tax evasion against Boroo will be dissappear quietly, once it is discovered where the money went.

Tjey - Do you think that us 'foreign' investors do not read,see and remember these double standards. You talk about Mongolian Laws and taxes...which ones are you talking about the one for foreigners or the one for Mongolians?

Do not think that mongolians do not want this agreement. I'm a Mongolian. I also want to approve this agreement. Mongolians want to work this mine but other Canadian and American working mines are disregarding our rules and policies. Do you believe that Boroo Co.ltd American company just taking out our gold with no taxes !! Because of this Oyu tolgoi project is canceling every time !!

Roydongen- sorry this site will not allow me to show you link but if you do a Google search on

Comparative Mining
Tax Regimes
A Summary of objectives, types and best practises

by Price Waterhouse you should find it

Roydongen – In January, 2005, the Mongolian government said it would offer tax breaks to companies such as BHP Billiton, Mitsui & Co. and Vale do Rio Doce to attract investment in coal and copper deposits in the Gobi desert worth more than $385 billion.
“Mongolia wants to attract miners, as well as companies to build roads, railways, power plants, and to manufacture products such as car parts”, said the country's Trade Minister Sukhbaatar Batbold. "We want industrial development of the southern Gobi, where we have a lot of mineral resources and mining potential." The government is looking at cutting tax rates because "Mongolia is in competition with many other places for scarce exploration funds," said Batbold. BHP Billiton, Vale, and China's largest coal producer Shenhua Group were in talks to set up a group to mine and process minerals in Mongolia.
Just one year later, in may, 2006, Mongolia’s Parliament ushered a new windfall tax law through the ranks in LESS THAN A WEEK. Yet in SIX years they cannot pass a fair and reasonable mineral law nor negotiate a stability agreement..............give me a break.
The windfall tax, other proposed taxes and government land ownership laws have done nothing but alienate foreign investors and even mining giant BHP has moved offices out of Mongolia. The repeated delays and on again off again possibility of agreement has made Mongolia a sad joke, and done nothing to make it prosperous. So long as a government is involved in making mining deals, especially a minority government, political infighting will sadly stall business and investor confidence. That is why in Canada and USA governments do not get involved in mining deals. Their revenues come from taxes and Royalties
On the other hand, since the 1990’s, Chile has been number one in terms of investing in South America and, as a result, numerous foreign companies have developed the country’s burgeoning mining sector. Chile is recognised as the mining capital of Latin America, and can be credited with initiating the investment surge to make Latin America the world’s primary mineral target. Apart from Codelco and the private Chilean mining company Antofagasta Minerals, all the major international mining houses are active in Chile (BHP Billiton, Anglo American, Rio Tinto, Placer Dome, Phelps Dodge, Falconbridge, Barrick Gold, Newmont, etc.). As a result, Chile has one of Latin America’s strongest growing economies. Chile’s economic performance improved during 2004 as GDP increased by 4.0% to US$72.0 billion and total exports increased by 40% to US$30.3 billion. Mining accounted for almost 50% of this total with copper exports reaching US$12.0 billion, 40% of the total exports.
The Mongolian politicians are so busy looking inward, and more interested in the upcoming Naadam, they do not realize that Mongolia is in competition with the rest of the world for, especially in these economic times, for rarer investor dollars. They should visit the Prospectors’ and Developers’ conference in Toronto to see all the countries in the world trying to develop mineral resources (even small African countries) provide , at their large booths, government geologists, tax experts, lawyers, CD’s, brochures and computer displays to entice investors. All that is, except Mongolia, who have one small table with some student handing out out-of-date Mining Laws. Where all the bureaucrats from Mongolia, who attend this event, have disappeared to, goodness only knows.

Just look at the link here to get an appreciation of competitive tax regimes in the world.

If western investors find little confidence in Mongolia the vacuum will be taken up by Russia who as Putin has stated, wishes to regain control of all the former Soviet Republics. Gazprom, Rusatom and others are working for Putin to gain a monopolistic hold on Mongolia. If Mongolia wishes to be a powerhouse in mineral development like Chile it needs to stop quickly create favourable, fair mining laws and taxation to encourage investors worldwide. Do I think it will happen? Recent history strongly suggests to me and many other investors that a snowball has a better chance in the Gobi heat in mid-July, than that possibility.

Although I fully agree that it is time for the Mongolian government to make a final decision about the major investments in OT and TT, the two largest mining projects, I would like to point out to "investor" that like in any democracy the parliament has the final vote. Not the prime minister, not the cabinet and not the president (who's powers constitutionally are limited to mainly the justice system for appointing judges and a veto right that can be overthrown by parliament with 2/3 majority).
There have been 6 years of negotiating indeed but no deal was approved by parliament, meaning that NO DEAL has been made.
It is not much different than the EU Treaty of Maastricht in the Netherlands, which was reached after years of negotiating, which was signed with a Champagne ceremony by all the EU leaders and which was afterwards rejected by parliaments or referendums.
Let's hope that the investors concerned and the officials involved can make a deal that can be approved by a vast majority of parliament after which they and many people in this country can go to work on a prosperous future!

Not only Ivanhoe but all other public companies (whose money comes from shareholders ie people like myself, who wish to see a return for my investment) need to be careful, be especially careful, now in these econimic times, which countries you go to with MY money.

Avoid countries where the government takes over 6 years to NOT come up with an agreement, and where the government does not understand the economics and high risks to the company of developing a mine, but would tax the company to the point where it is uneconomic to develop the mine anyway.

There is almost the same size of copper/gold porphyry deposit as Oyu Tolgoi in Alaska (USA) being developed by a Canadian and British company (similar to what is happening at Oyu Tolgoi). But I do not see the State or Federal government in the USA trying to change the tax system or laws to handicap these companies and grab a bigger share of the profit. Nor do we see Nationalists saying do not give it to the foreigners but keep it for USA.

Basically, what I am saying is avoid ignorant, backward countries who have no clue about time, money matters or mining, and who instead of trying to obtain a honest tax and royalty are out to fill their politicians and beaurocrats pockets through corruption and to basically screw companies invited to their country who have invested a huge amount of time and money to develop their country. Do not risk MY money by going to these countries like Mongolia......the history of the last six years of negotiations is clear enough evidence in any court of opinion that the Mongolian government cannot be trusted.

There is pressure for IVN as well. I read a comment:

There are several reasons why this has to be a win: IVN can not wait, so they will be more willing to sign almost anything. And the price will go up on any signed contract.

I am following this whole negotiation from beginning of 2008 and I strongly agree with Billy - Ivanhoe must be very carefull. I think there is so many places in the world still to be develop that with match LESS obstical and willing goverments. In this world-wide economic situation , I think Mongolia must be gratefull for investors still want to invest in them!

Years of negotiating, analysis and discussions by both sides and the newcomer says: "I dont like it.." Well, as an investor I sure hope that Ivanhoe looks at all kinds of good, safe, sound and secure investments in many places in the world before risking more money on an unsafe and unsecure relationship with the Govt of Mongolia.

Those who will benefit from a policy want it to be implemented right away, whether it is "win-win" for all concerned. Elbegdorj is searching for the right policy, having abandoned the idea that government should take an equity stake, saying that he is searching for a benchmark for Mongolia follow that will benefit all concerned. As the minerals beneath Mongolia's surface have been there since time immortal (or at least since Genghis Khan), waiting a bit should not cause a huge problem.